What to do during AV raid?

[Ella]

Originally Posted by snipeshot08

Prostitution is not a crime in Singapore within the authorised boundaries, only solicitation.

I agree, the AV can only BARK at you like a dog during the raid but can't arrest you but please DON"T RUN or else they tthought u illegal immigrant

[gedangsa]

Originally Posted by snipeshot08

After looking at some of the replies, I can't help but feel that some of the so-called claims to know the consequences were quite in-accurate & most probably gleamed from third-party sources...

Just to correct some mis-conceptions,

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Kudos to bro snipeshot, he shall henceforth be known as Lawyer Snipe !! Hahaha.

Tks Lawyer Snipe, can we exchange hp num thru pm ? So that I can get free consultation privately ?

Cheers

[Hanxinco88]

Hi Bro,

Thank you bro snipeshot88 for his contribution. The response has been overwhelming since this thread started. I started this thread so that cheongster like us who likes to cheong will be able to react when situation like that happens or take precautious.

So bros, please up my point if you think that this thread is useful!! thanks

Another source that I think it is worth listening is for bros who have friends or personal experience with AV officers and would like to share their stories.

Thanks and Keep contribution to make Singapore a safe place to live in......

[gedangsa]

Originally Posted by Hanxinco88

Hi Bro,

I started this thread .....

So bros, please up my point if you think that this thread is useful!! thanks

Tell us why we should up your pts instead of bro snipeshot's rep pts ? Don't you think he desevred it more than you ?

In fact, many threads on topic has been started countless of times, so maybe we should deduct yours instead of adding ?

Anyway, just my opinion. I have nothing against you.

Cheers

[firefox79]

Sorry buys, me new here so dun really knw how to use the system here....

From wat i knw is that the HC will spot the police even before they arrive...

How i knw?? cos i kena before at one HC, the girl told me that she kant give me special cos got police downstairs, and they r the non uniform type...Ask her how she knw, she refuse to tell..

but i still bonk her, cos if they can spot the police down stairs, surely they can do the same before they cum in....

[Hanxinco88]

Thank you Bro Gedangsa for this feedback. Though it is quite demoralising but will try to contribute more in future..........

I do agree bro snipeshot deserve something and I have personall credit hom for his effort.

Anyway, even no up points, Still feel great when I see the number of people veiwing this thread increase by the 100s every day.

Thanks

[sincereman74]

My humble 2 cents worth:


1) when one performs oral sex or allows the hc gal to perform oral sex on him, the possible offence would be section 377 of the Penal Code. [acts are deemed ‘unnatural’]

2) anal intercourse would also be classified as an offence under section 377 of the Penal Code.


Even if the acts above are consensual, issue of consent is irrelevant as the doctrine of illegality would operate and frustrate and override any prior consent: ie. If the act is illegal in the first place, whether the parties consented is irrelevant.


3) The mere act of asking the HC gal to perform oral/anal sex and vice versa would also constitute an offence: abetting the commission of an offence of having unnatural sex. ie. Section 377 read with section 109 of the Penal Code.

4) Though it has been decided by the Courts earlier that foreplay (including oral sex) prelude to penile intercourse would NOT constitute an offence, the question of when does an offence arise may be determinate on when the AV officers barge in!

5) Though the operation of HC is very much governed by the Massage Establishments Act, Cap 173, it would be useful to look at the Miscellaneous Offences Act as well.

a) when the HC gal asks you whether you want ‘special’, she has already committed an offence under section 19 of the Act – soliciting for the purpose of prostitution.

b) Whoever engages in an indecent behaviour in any public place would constitute an offence under section 20 of the Act. It must be noted that ‘public place’ is widely defined and the premises of the HC would fall within the definition of ‘public place’. ["public place" means any place or premises to which at the material time the public or any section of the public has access, on payment or otherwise, as of right or by virtue of express or implied permission]

Any kind of sexual acts would definitely be an indecent behaviour.


There are some who argue that the acts are conducted in the PRIVACY of the massage rooms and should not fall within the definition of ‘public place’. But regrettably, as seen above, the definition of ‘public place’ is wide enough to cover the scenario and I would think that even if a couple who are having sexual intercourse in a cubicle within the swimming pool toilet would arguably be caught as well. Furthermore, the test for ‘indecent behaviour’ is the objective test or the ‘reasonable test’ ie. whether the ordinary man in the street would deem it as indecent and not the subjective standard ie. the standard adopted by fellow samsters who would of course not view it as indecent.


At the end of the day, it still depends very much on enforcement. The above are merely some alternative legal arguments. At the end of the day, the decision to cheong or not is yours.

[gedangsa]

Originally Posted by Hanxinco88

Thank you Bro Gedangsa for this feedback. Though it is quite demoralising but ..........

Thanks

It is ok lah bro, no need to feel demoralised. That was not my intention. Cheers bro !!

[Hanxinco88]

My Humble contribution:

MISCELLANEOUS OFFENCES (PUBLIC ORDER AND NUISANCE) ACT
(CHAPTER 184)
19. Every person who in any public road or public place persistently loiters or solicits for the purpose of prostitution or for any other immoral purpose shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 and, in the case of a second or subsequent conviction, to a fine not exceeding $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

MASSAGE ESTABLISHMENTS ACT
(CHAPTER 173)
Establishment for massage deemed to be a public place.
12. For the purposes of section 21 of the Minor Offences Act every establishment for massage shall be deemed to be a public place

Verdict: HC, TN and Massage Center are also public place. Thus it is an offence for the girl to offer HJ, FJ and other services in HC......so far nothing has been said about the customers, thus the verdit is that customers willnot be prosecuted.

Any comments?????

[Hanxinco88]

WOMEN’S CHARTER
(CHAPTER 353)

Power to summon and examine persons in certain circumstances
171. —(1) The Director may summon any person who he has reason to believe can give any information —

(a) regarding any woman or girl in respect of whom he has reasonable cause to believe that an offence under this Part is or may be committed or who he has reasonable cause to believe is or may be liable to be dealt with under section 156, 159 or 160; or

(b) regarding any place which he has reasonable cause to believe is being used as a brothel, a place of assignation or for the purpose of prostitution.

(2) The person so summoned shall attend at the time and place specified in the summons and shall produce all documents in his custody, possession or control relating to the woman or girl or place, as the case may be, and shall answer truthfully all questions which the Director may put to him respecting the woman or girl or place or in any way relating to the matter being inquired into, and where the inquiry relates to any woman or girl, the person shall also, if so required by the Director, produce the woman or girl, unless the person is able to satisfy the Director that he is unable to do so.

(3) The Director shall be deemed to be a public servant within the meaning of the Penal Code (Cap. 224) and may administer oaths to and examine on oath any person summoned before him for the purposes of this Part.

(4) Any person summoned who fails to attend at the time and place specified in the summons or to do any of the other acts referred to in subsection (2) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

(5) The Director shall not be compellable in any judicial proceedings to answer any questions as to the grounds of his decision or belief in any case dealt with by him under this Part or as to anything which came to his knowledge in any inquiry made by him as Director.

(6) The Director may, during or after such inquiry as is referred to in subsection (2), arrest or cause to be arrested any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be liable to prosecution for any offence under this Part committed in respect of the woman or girl or place, and may seize and detain any article, book, document or account which he may have reason to believe to relate to such offence.


Verdict: Look at the underline and bold subsection of the woman charter act.
The Director in this case means any police officer(AV), and they have the power to arrest cheongster like us if they have reasons to belief that we are involved.

Please correct me if I have interpret wrongly.....

Cheers

[sincereman74]

Thanks, Bro Hanxinco88 for your post.

However, with all due respect, I beg to differ and would think that section 171(6) of the Women's Charter does not empower AV officers to arrest cheongster. Come to that in a moment.

First, lets look at section 171 in its entirety. section 171(1)(b) covers the situation where the Director can summon a fellow cheongster to give information on whether the HC is providing sexual services etc. Failure to turn up upon being summoned would constitute an offence and punishable under section 171(4). For the purposes of this Act, the Director is deemed a public servant under section 171(3). As such, if a cheongster lies or furnishes false information to the Director or his delegated officer (eg. lie that they do not provide special services when in fact they do), one is liable of furnishing false information to a public servant under section 182 of the Penal Code.

Let's look at section 171(6) again:
The Director may, during or after such inquiry as is referred to in subsection (2), arrest or cause to be arrested any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be liable to prosecution for any offence under this Part committed in respect of the woman or girl or place, and .....

From above, the provision relates to arrest of any person liable for prosecution under this Part [means sections 140 to 179 of the Women's Charter] The possible offences arising therein from these sections are mainly confined to forcing someone into prostitution, living on earnings of prostitution, mananging a brothel etc... The intention behind section 171, I suspect, is to empower the Director to summon anyone to provide information that can lead to the arrest of the operators/syndicate and not target at cheongsters. The only time when a cheongster can be arrested for sexual acts UNDER THIS PART of the Act is under section 140(1)(i) of the Women's Charter when the gal is under the age of 16. But of course, the gals cannot be under 16 and not to worry. The more relevant provision on the powers of arrest and searches of the premises by the officers is dealt with by section 174 of the Women's Charter but again it does not seem to relate to arrest of Cheongsters.

However, lest we all heave a sign of relief, the normal powers of seach and arrest vested in a police officer (under Criminal Procedure Code) would still apply if an offence has been committed in the premises. The officer can still arrest cheongsters if there are reasonable grounds to believe that an offence has been committed. As mentioned in my earlier post, the possible offences may be section 377 of the Penal Code (unnatural offences) and section 20 of the Miscellaneous Offences Act - indecent behaviour

The above are simply my own personal views.

[packardbell]

Originally Posted by Hanxinco88

WOMEN’S CHARTER
(CHAPTER 353)

Power to summon and examine persons in certain circumstances
171. —(1) The Director may summon any person who he has reason to believe can give any information —

(a) regarding any woman or girl in respect of whom he has reasonable cause to believe that an offence under this Part is or may be committed or who he has reasonable cause to believe is or may be liable to be dealt with under section 156, 159 or 160; or

(b) regarding any place which he has reasonable cause to believe is being used as a brothel, a place of assignation or for the purpose of prostitution.

(2) The person so summoned shall attend at the time and place specified in the summons and shall produce all documents in his custody, possession or control relating to the woman or girl or place, as the case may be, and shall answer truthfully all questions which the Director may put to him respecting the woman or girl or place or in any way relating to the matter being inquired into, and where the inquiry relates to any woman or girl, the person shall also, if so required by the Director, produce the woman or girl, unless the person is able to satisfy the Director that he is unable to do so.

(3) The Director shall be deemed to be a public servant within the meaning of the Penal Code (Cap. 224) and may administer oaths to and examine on oath any person summoned before him for the purposes of this Part.

(4) Any person summoned who fails to attend at the time and place specified in the summons or to do any of the other acts referred to in subsection (2) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

(5) The Director shall not be compellable in any judicial proceedings to answer any questions as to the grounds of his decision or belief in any case dealt with by him under this Part or as to anything which came to his knowledge in any inquiry made by him as Director.

(6) The Director may, during or after such inquiry as is referred to in subsection (2), arrest or cause to be arrested any person whom he has reasonable cause to believe to be liable to prosecution for any offence under this Part committed in respect of the woman or girl or place, and may seize and detain any article, book, document or account which he may have reason to believe to relate to such offence.


Verdict: Look at the underline and bold subsection of the woman charter act.
The Director in this case means any police officer(AV), and they have the power to arrest cheongster like us if they have reasons to belief that we are involved.

Please correct me if I have interpret wrongly.....

Cheers

Wow is a goog learning here. May I ask, does the same apply to TN..
Just like to know if caught doing bj or fj, is it true that they need
family member to bail out. Beri scare leh.

[12345678910]

most of the replies are regarding HC and TN, what about KTV ? what will happen if there are raids ?

[snakehead]

Originally Posted by snipeshot08

After looking at some of the replies, I can't help but feel that some of the so-called claims to know the consequences were quite in-accurate & most probably gleamed from third-party sources.........

Some brudders may query my information sources so just to answer them, I had the opportunity to study the common & criminal law as one of my past subjects before.

My post here is merely meant to help fellow brudders understand the above-mentioned issues and sincerely do not mean to dis-credit other brudder's posts, if I had done so inadvertently please accept my SINCEREST APOLOGIES in advance.

Cheers & happy bonking

Oi...Ah SIR......u still around ah.......I tot u be pension by now liao........kopi oneday.....ok? ..... same coffeshop at corner opp ur office.

bro snakehead

[gedangsa]

Originally Posted by 12345678910

most of the replies are regarding HC and TN, what about KTV ? what will happen if there are raids ?

KTV raid no problem one lah. I was in the KTV once when the raid occured. The raid mostly concentrate on the girls, check their passport .. etc. In fact, the AV officer was very polite with us, even say "Excuse me" and "Sorry for interupting..." etc.

The only thing is that after the raid, "dick see dick", I mean no girls to entertain you, so all customer will leave the place !!