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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Are teachers rich or poor?
=================================== VietNamNet Bridge – There are big differences in the income of teachers. While the majority of teachers complain that the income is not high enough to cover their basic needs, some “branded teachers” can earn billions of dong a year. The common thing of the groups of teachers is that they do not receive much money from the state budget. Extra teaching hours bring major income In big cities, nearly all teachers of primary and secondary schools give extra teaching at private tutoring classes. In the past, the classes were located at education centers. However, nowadays, teachers open the classes right at their homes, which allows them not to have to share profits with others. It’s easy to attract students to private tutoring classes nowadays, because nearly all the students want to go to extra classes after the school hours. Even those, who do not want to attend the classes, also have to attend the tutoring lessons provided by their teachers, or they would receive bad marks for school works. A parent whose son is going to a school in Dong Da district said that 2/3 of the students in his son’s class go to the private class run by their school teacher. Every student has to pay 60,000 dong for every teaching hour, or 120,000 a week. As such, with the current number of students, the teacher can earn 20 million dong a month from the private tutoring classes. In Thanh Oai district in the suburbs of Hanoi, a secondary school teacher said that the students of the school have 4 private tutoring hours a week, for which they had to pay 200,000. On average, a class comprises of 30 students, and a teacher has two teaching shift a day. This means that a teacher can earn 30 million dong a month. Meanwhile, in Vietnam, a monthly income of 10 million dong would be considered “high income.” The tuitions would be much higher if students want specific tutoring hours. Thu, a parent in Cau Giay district, said that her second grade son last year learned with a teacher who demanded 100,000 dong per teaching hour. As the class had fewer students than other normal classes, the tuition per student was higher. Hundreds of millions of dong in income for general school teachers Every year, thousands of students in big cities attend the entrance exams to prestigious schools, such as the Hanoi-Amsterdam High School for the Gifted, the High School for the Gifted under the Hanoi University for Natural Sciences, Luong The Vinh, Marie Curie high schools. In order to prepare for the entrance exams, all the students have to attend the extra classes where they can learn with qualified teachers and pay sky high tuitions. The Hanoi-Amsterdam High School for the Gifted is the targeted school for many students in Hanoi. Therefore, the teachers of the school are considered “branded teachers,” whose classes are always full of students. A student of the school said that the tuitions demanded by the school’s teachers are “reasonable”. She has to pay 500,000 dong a month for 12 mathematics teaching hours. Besides, she also attends other classes, which costs her 1.5 million dong in total for extra lessons. “All the teachers at my school give private tutoring classes. They do not have weekends,” she said. It is estimated that a branded teacher can earn 50-60 million dong a month, if he has a busy weekly teaching schedule, from Monday to Saturday, with 4 teaching shifts a day. Meanwhile, less prestigious teachers can also earn hundreds of millions of dong a year. Phong Dang – Minh Hien
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
When Vietnamese tour guides badmouth their country
================================================== ====== I am lucky to have some chances to travel overseas. It is interesting to see how tourism in other countries works. However, I sometimes get annoyed by the instructions of certain Vietnamese tour guides. One time in Paris, when we were driving pass a long bridge, a tour guide said to us: “Please pay attention! This bridge has several spans but vehicles can run smoothly. In Vietnam, bridges are bumpy, which exhausts us.” When we cruised upon the Seine River, the guide started to mention the Nhieu Loc canal in Saigon: “Ho Chi Minh City has plans to turn Nhieu Loc canal into a tourist site like the Seine, but we will probably have to wait for a few generations.” Another time, when we visited the Petronas Twin Towers in Malaysia, a tour guide reminded us: “There are a lot of visitors here so please go in a group. Anyway, it is easy to spot Vietnamese tourists: they are those who only look at goods without buying.” When we were walking on the clean streets of Singapore, we were told: “There is a great penalty for public littering. Sometimes people have to hold garbage in their hand for a long time before finding a trash bin. Vietnamese are not so patient so they just throw it on the street. ” Every time they introduce a foreign culture, local Vietnamese guides tend to bring up something negative about Vietnam. These are bad comments, derogative remarks, and scorn towards the country they come from. I do not know how a tour guide is trained in school and at a travel agency. They were born, brought up and are working in Vietnam. Why can’t they express some love for their homeland, show some sympathy and confidence in the future here? It is lame to compare Vietnam and other developed countries we travel to. Vietnam still has a lot of difficulties and many people are still living in poverty. Despite the many drawbacks that we see every day, we cannot deny the positive changes in the country in recent years. I hope the tour guides will stop comparing and putting negative messages into tourists’ minds.
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Did the tour guide badmouth or just tell the truth?
================================================== ===== The story by Thao Phuong about local tour guides who ‘badmouth’ Vietnam when they take tourists overseas has received an enormous response from Tuoi Tre readers. Some think that tour guides should consider their words carefully, as they act as a culture ambassador to both domestic and international tourists. “Every country has its good and bad points. Tour guides cannot just take the short-comings to introduce and laugh at, create misunderstandings, and negatively impact to the country,” wrote reader Tan Khoi. Khoi suggested turning to provincial or national forums to discuss ongoing issues with likeminded people to figure out solutions together. A reader nicknamed momvang thought that these lame comparisons are made by a few tour guides, most of whom are young and inexperienced graduates working on contract in some travel agencies. “Other countries have their own problems too. My foreign friends fell in love with Vietnam due to people’s friendliness and the country’s safeness. Why should we Vietnamese talk bad about the place where we were born?” she wondered. On the other hand, some readers stood on the tour guide’s side and found that it is totally right to point out the country’s weak points, from which we strive to better ourselves. A reader nicknamed LangThang found the author’s view shallow and close-minded, although he agreed that the tour guide may have expressed his views in a straight-forward way and hurt some sensitive tourists. “The tour guides are patriotic enough to say that the final purpose is to make Vietnam become better, to catch up with other countries. It is better than those who try to ignore problems and do not dare to speak up about the country’s weak points,” he wrote. “From criticisms, we can learn a lesson and better ourselves. If we feel shameful and react to criticisms, we can never keep up with other people,” said reader Tran Quy. “I disagree with the author. Living in Hanoi, I see people littering, spitting in public. Many cross Chuong Duong or Long Bien street and throw garbage into the Hong River. No one feels ashamed and no one scolds anyone. The authorities also say nothing about dirty streets filled with potholes. Why do you blame the tour guides for telling the truth?” wrote reader Vuong Van Gioi. Local tour guides also raised their own voice regarding the issue. “Since childhood, we were educated to see the truth and have our own points of view. The stories told by tour guides were not meant to badmouth the country. They are opinions of a responsible person. Probably the author herself had some bad experience and grew antipathy to the tour guides?” wondered My Hanh, a former tour guide. Tour guide Nguyen Tam said some of his colleagues are concerned about Vietnam’s development compared to other countries, and they reflect that fact so that everyone can consider the issue. “It is telling the truth, although it is hard to accept. I don’t find it bad. It is just a reminder for us to study and work harder,” he wrote. Minh Nhat, an English tour guide who has been taking foreign tourists around the country, had another view. He shared that local tour guides should never badmouth Vietnam to either domestic or foreign tourists. “As a cultural ambassador, no one wants to talk bad about their own country and people. In reality, tour guides are not painters who only offer beautiful images of their homeland. Tourists are very sensitive and can find out if we tell the truth or not,” he wrote.
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Local tour guides are meant to educate tourists
================================================== ======== I have read an article by Thao Phuong and do not agree with her point that local tour guides badmouth Vietnam when they take tourists overseas. Badmouthing is turning a good story into a bad one for some reason of individual intention. I found all the comparisons remarked upon by tour guides in the article to be true. First, everyone knows about bumpy bridges in Vietnam and they have been talked about over and over again. It is also common for Vietnamese to see goods in a supermarket and they do not buy. How can we shop in a foreign country when our budget is limited? In the article, the author also concluded that: “Vietnam still has a lot of difficulties and many people are still living in poverty.” This is nothing to be ashamed of. The last remark about throwing garbage on the street reflects a bad habit of the Vietnamese which we can see every day. The three anecdotes are all true, so how can we accuse the tour guides of badmouthing the country and its people? Secondly, as a Vietnamese person, I know that our country is poor and many people are still needy. I also see positive changes in the current development. However, it is not because we are poor that we accept bumpy roads and potholes caused by careless or corrupt constructors. It is not because we are poor that we feel ashamed to be told that we have no money to buy luxuries or goods which are more expensive than back home. Above all, it is not because we are poor that we are unaware of keeping public areas clean by not littering everywhere. These acts are not related to being rich or poor, but they are instead connected to the awareness of each individual in society. Except for poverty, we are not inferior to other countries in intellectuals, resources, patriotism and a spirit to overcome difficulties. How can the author call those remarks lame comparisons? The tour guides did not compare the economy of Vietnam and other developed countries. They were just comparisons of social awareness told by local guides to local tourists. Comparing ourselves to others and then learning from their good points is worth doing. There is a proverb: “He that travels far knows much.” We travel to see, to compare and then strive to better ourselves in life and work. Only tour guides who do not understand local history or relay false stories to foreign tourists should be criticized. The Vietnamese themselves understand the limitations in their own country. Tour guides have a right to share their feelings about their people, to express their worries and concerns about their country while taking tourists on world tours. And I believe that many Vietnamese in a tourist group would sympathize and understand because they have concerns about the country’s current situation too.
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Pointing out weak points
=============================== This week, the focus is on an article by reader Thao Phuong, who shared her experience travelling overseas and hearing Vietnamese tour guides criticizing tourism back home. “One time in Paris, when we were driving pass a long bridge, a tour guide said to us: ‘Please pay attention! This bridge has several spans but vehicles can run smoothly. In Vietnam, bridges are bumpy, which exhausts us.’ When we cruised on the Seine River, the guide started to mention the Nhieu Loc canal in Saigon: ‘Ho Chi Minh City has plans to turn Nhieu Loc canal into a tourist site like the Seine, but we will probably have to wait for a few generations,’” she recalled. In the article, Thao Phuong found it lame to compare Vietnam with other developed countries since the former is still growing and encountering several difficulties, especially poverty. “Despite the many drawbacks that we see every day, we cannot deny the positive changes in the country in recent years. I hope the tour guides will stop comparing and putting negative messages into tourists’ minds,” she wrote. Thao Phuong’s letter to Tuoi Tre has elicited different reactions from our readers. Some agreed that Vietnamese tour guides are not professional enough and do not think thoroughly before speaking. “I'm sure most Vietnamese guides in these countries are self-taught and are not required to have any special accreditation or special knowledge. Finally, since you're paying for their service in the first place and seem quite content to write Tuoi Tre readers about this, why don't you simply tell the guides that you are not happy with their attitude?,” wondered Carl Robinson. “Don't take it so hard Thao, you should simply tell them that it’s also easy to spot a Vietnamese tour guide, they are the only ones standing around complaining about their homeland,” wrote Class Clown jokingly. In a response article, Dao Thien Kim said she found what the tour guides said to be all truths and poverty is not an excuse for not feeling ashamed of the differences between Vietnam and other developed nations. “I know that our country is poor and many people are still needy. I also see positive changes in the current development. However, it is not because we are poor that we accept bumpy roads and potholes caused by careless or corrupt constructors. It is not because we are poor that we feel ashamed to be told that we have no money to buy luxuries or goods which are more expensive than back home. Above all, it is not because we are poor that we are unaware of keeping public areas clean by not littering everywhere,” she reasoned. Besides comments from readers who are tourists and are concerned about Vietnam tourism, we also received feedback from current and former tour guides about this issue. “Since childhood, we were educated to see the truth and have our own points of view. The stories told by those tour guides were not meant to badmouth the country. They are opinions of a responsible person. Probably the author herself had some bad experience and became hostile to the tour guides?” wondered My Hanh, a former tour guide. Minh Nhat, an English tour guide who has been taking foreign tourists around the country, had another view. He shared that local tour guides should never badmouth Vietnam to either domestic or foreign tourists. “As a cultural ambassador, no one wants to talk bad about their own country and people. In reality, tour guides are not painters who only offer beautiful images of their homeland. Tourists are very sensitive and can find out if we tell the truth or not,” he wrote. How about you, our readers? Do you feel ashamed to have your short-comings pointed out to you? Do you get annoyed at hearing someone, especially a person of the same nationality, badmouthing your country? Share with us your opinions regarding this issue via [email protected] Have a relaxing weekend!
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Corruption still popular among local businesses
================================================== ====== Local enterprises still engage in corrupt practices in exchange for favorable conditions for business activities, said a research on corruption situation in Vietnam. Corruption has become more and more popular among Vietnamese business community as well as between enterprises and the State agencies, leaving far-reaching impacts on the local business environment, said the research results announced on Wednesday by the Vietnam Chamber of Commerce and Industry (VCCI) and the Development and Policies Research Center (DEPOCEN). The results are based on the direct interviews with 270 enterprises, associations and governmental officials. Most of the respondents admitted they are victims of corruption but also bribe-givers themselves, The survey participants are fully aware of the negative impacts of corruption on the local business environment, as well as relations among enterprises and between enterprises and the public sector. Some 40% of the respondents said unofficial expenditures accounted for around 1% of the total annual business expenditures, while 13% said such expense made up 5%. A considerable 63% of the surveyed enterprises shared the view that corruption occurred between enterprises and the State management agencies right in the process of business registration and other licensing processes. “The complicated and ambiguous system of trade licenses is a cause of corruption in Vietnam,” said a respondent. Regarding the land use procedures, 40% of the enterprises believed they had to have personal relationships to receive allocated and transferred land. Businesses also spend hefty unofficial expenses on tax, custom and market management agencies. The survey participants expressed neutral opinions on biddings and goods procurements, but a half of them admitted giving gifts to the officials in charge of biddings is very common. Corrupt practices between enterprises and enterprises are also popular. Organizing biddings is considered a transparent way to select capable suppliers, but not all enterprises follow this way. Only 30.45% of the surveyed enterprises replied they chose suppliers via biddings, but less than 8% said they always do so. Even during the bidding process, enterprises are willing to adopt preferential polices for the contract negotiators of the other parties, with 30% of the respondents saying they regularly do so and 40% sometimes or rarely do. Most enterprises said they often pay kickbacks worth below 5% of the contract values, while a few others said the percentage is over 10%. Kickbacks in the service sector are said to be higher than in production and trading. The popularity of corrupt practices in the local business community partly explains why Vietnam always ranks among the bottom nations in the Corruption Perceptions Index of Transparency International in the last seven years, regardless of the efforts to reform the country. SGT
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
All went up the mountain to learn tieng viet on their own. No internet access
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
actually is the vbs that improve their communication skills..... english or mandarin .... so now we no need to learn liao
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BTW, if you want to zap me, let me know where is my mistake. I am here to share and to learn. But if you find my reports/views/contribution are beneficial and enjoyable, don't be stingy on your points. |
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Last week went to club 36, I asked the vb in TV, she answered me in TH, another vb talked in TA, looks like they learn the languages before they come.
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Salary absurdity
========================== VietNamNet Bridge – The salary of a doctor, who is the head of a scientific research department with over 20 years of experience, is equivalent to the salary of a charwoman of a middle-class family and lower than the salary of a taxi driver in Hanoi or HCM City. The salary of a worker in a foreign-invested garment firm is enough to feed the worker. Though the salary policy has been reformed for a long time, there are absurdities of salaries and income in Vietnam. Firstly, salary and income is not paid based on qualification, but on power and job title. Salary is the price of labor and it reflects the level and result of labor in reality. However, salary in the public sector is leveled and does not encourage people to study and improve their expertise and responsibility at work. To enjoy salary increases, some civil servants do not rely on their qualification and personal endeavor at work, but through their personal relations and gaps on personnel policies. As a result, many talented and hard-working people do not have many chances to have their salary rise; salaries of major employees are lower than assistant employees; retirement pension is higher than the salary of working-age people; the real income is lowering while the number of civil servants keeps rising; income not from salary is on the rise, particularly for civil servants who work in the fields of “power”. This is closely attached to corruption and bribery for promotion. There are young people whose talent and expertise are not high, but enjoy a towering salary and are appointed to high position than others, who are better than them in all aspects. Secondly, the nominal rise of a salary is always lower than the reduction of real income and the minimum salary increases continuously, while the minimum level of income for imposing personal income tax is not adjusted regularly. Whenever the minimum salary rises, the price of goods often increases at higher level. Consequently, the real income of salary earners may be lower than before. Notably, sometimes salary is increased for a part of workers in the society but it brings about negative impacts on the society when prices for goods also increase in the market. Besides high inflation rate over the last four years (approximately 50 percent), nominal salary has also been adjusted. However, the starting point for imposing personal income tax – VND4 million ($200) – was maintained until late 2011, even though it became “outdated’ very shortly after it was applied. This absurdity has unintentionally turned workers into “rich people” because their income easily reaches the level for paying personal income tax, which should be only imposed on the rich. Thirdly, representatives of laborers to defend laborers are paid by employers. The trade unions in enterprises in the private and foreign-invested sectors are set up in formalism. They are not the true protectors of laborers’ interest. The profound reason is most leaders of trade unions in these enterprises are recruited and paid by employers. Moreover, at many enterprises, the salary and salary negotiation policies do not meet the market principles. Low salary and complicated regulations on legal strikes have resulted in the increase of spontaneous strikes in the foreign-invested sector. In fact, many enterprises abuse their workers by asking them to work overtime, reduce interests of workers or pay low salary for workers though they are able to pay higher. These are among the main reasons for increasing strikes and massive resignations of workers at industrial zones and export processing zones in Vietnam, especially at big cities where the living cost is expensive. This situation causes losses for employers and harms Vietnam’s prestige and FDI attraction policy. Worse, some businesses recruit and fire workers constantly. In these cases, employers complain about the poor quality of labor. But the true reason is to avoid paying labor interests and exploit workers by paying salary at the starting point. This trick causes false scarcity of labor and losses to workers. Many foreign-invested enterprises always report losses but they still pay high salary to employees, thanks to the price transfer trick. This is also popular in state-owned enterprises, which hold a monopoly in some industries. For example, the Electricity of Vietnam Group (EVN) owes huge debts but it still pays very high salary to employees. A joint venture airway reported heavy losses but it still paid huge salary to its officials. In 2009, US President Barrack Obama called the act that CEOs of loss-incurred banks received millions of USD of salaries is unmoral. Recently, the Japanese Prime Minister stated to not receive their PM salary until the nuclear power incident is solved. Strikes, especially strikes in the foreign-invested sector, should not be only considered as the signal of instability of investment environment in a certain province, but also the signal of social injustice, which needs the state’s assistance to protect legal interests of workers. Sometimes, they should be considered as the signal of backwardness and the requirement for restructuring the economy. Dr. Nguyen Minh Phong
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
University students learn to become “playboys”, “kept women”
================================================== ============ VietNamNet Bridge – Attending parties through the night, being keen on gambling, “addicted to laptops” and earning money by serving as kept women--all have become the new lifestyles of a part of Vietnamese students nowadays, who always strive to escape from the parents’ control. Parties – an “indispensable part of life” Vietnamese students nowadays believe that they need to lead the lives independent from their parents and they need to decide themselves, not their parents, what they will do in their lives. The students try to “liberalize” themselves by attending the parties through the night. They not only gather together on holidays or birthday parties, but also on ordinary days. The students from well off families attend luxurious parties and drink the bottles of wine worth millions of dong, while the ones from poor families gather together at tea shops to drink the teas worth 2000 dong and gossip. B Thanh, a student of the Industry University, said that he spends most of his free time on parties, where he can meet friends and share everything with them. “If you cannot enjoy the life now, you will feel regret later,” Thanh said, adding that only foolish students would spend time learning hard. Gambling – the bad habit of many students As for many students, reviewing lessons has become a “luxurious pleasure.” Therefore, when getting tired of going out, they would not go to bed or do school works, but would gang together for gambling. And when getting tired of gambling, they would turn on laptops to watch online films. The watching may last for indefinite time, and students can stay up through the night to watch films. Addicted to the Internet Currently, laptops are no longer luxurious things to students. Therefore, it’s easier sitting for hours in front of laptops to surf on Internet and read funny stories. A society of people who like sitting for hours in front of computers has been established on a social network. The society has attracted a lot of members who always click “like.” Thanh, a student of the Electronics and Refrigeration Junior College, said that he can work with computer for 10 continued hours. Thanh said that he can live without meals for one day, but he would get crazy if he is away from his laptop for one day. The kept women – students Gambling, parties and spending money like water have been applauded by the student circle as the most favorite pastimes. However, in order to be able to join the games, students need to have money. One of the easiest ways for female students to earn money is to serve as the kept women for the rich men. Q, the student of a junior college, quietly leaves the dormitory in the evening and only returns after the midnight, climbing the wall into her room, as the dormitory is locked by that time. Q’s timetable proves to be different from everyone else: she sleeps in daylight, and works at night, while spending no time on learning. The girls sharing the same room with Q, said that night is the time for her to earn money from the rich men. T, a student of the same junior college, has also become “famous” as a call girl. Rumor has been spread out that T can earn 500,000 dong for every night. Therefore, T has a special nickname “T 500”. Minh Hien
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
Don’t let taxi drivers rob tourists
========================================== At the end of July last year, four of us in my family traveled to Malaysia to attend our son’s graduation ceremony. From Ho Chi Minh City’s Tan Son Nhat airport, we took a budget flight and arrived at the low cost carrier terminal at Kuala Lumpur’s airport around midnight. We had booked a hotel at Chowkit, in the city center, and took a taxi from the airport. Since he had been studying there, my son knew that taxis did not run by meter, but a deal was always made between passengers and driver. I was a little worried that we would be ripped off at that late time of day. However, I was relieved when the aged taxi driver asked for VND750,000 (US$ 36) for a distance of 60km. Although we made a deal on a price, the driver drove through the streets to find us the hotel without asking for more money. After that night, we took other taxis around Malaysia and met nice drivers. It was my first time going to Malaysia and I had good impression of the country owing to cheerful drivers who do not rip off passengers at midnight. Two months after the trip, through the media, I heard a story about three Malaysian tourists going from Ben Thanh market to Tan Son Nhat airport and were scammed by taxi forVND4 million (US$200) and MYR300 (US$100). I think bad and good people exist everywhere. Some Malaysian drivers were said to raise the price while other Vietnamese drivers return money and luggage left by passengers in the car. The thing is that we should not let taxi drivers rob tourists and drive away with their luggage in the car anymore. The case of the Japanese tourist who was robbed by a taxi driver reminded us of the incident where two Singaporeans, who were delegates of the 80th Interpol General Assembly in Hanoi, fell victim to a scamming taxi driver who overcharged them by 40 times the normal fee, and even took away their cell phones. It is a nightmare to just arrive in Vietnam and get ripped off by taxi drivers. To prevent this situation, foreign guidebooks have shown how to take a taxi and how to handle a scam. But what do taxi companies and the authorities do about the cab operation? What have they done to ensure that taxi drivers do not ruin the country’s image?
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Re: Tieng Viet lovers club
I have regained my trust
=============================== TuoiTreNews: Ayumi Ono, a 27-year old Japanese tourist who was robbed last Thursday by the Saigon Hoang Long taxi on the way to her hotel on De Tham Street in Ho Chi Minh City’s District 1, sent a letter to Tuoi Tre readers before departing for Japan. She retold her feelings on the incident and expressed her thanks to the responsible people who helped her find the luggage. ------ I visited Vietnam before and fell in love with the country and people. To discover more about Vietnam, I went on a 5 day and 4 night trip as a tourist at the end of March. This trip allowed me to learn more about the people, including the good and bad ones. After the incident, I know how to catch a cab in Vietnam: buy a ticket for a taxi in the airport and upon arrival ask the driver to bring you luggage down before paying. I was surprised it was so difficult and time-consuming to find lost luggage in Vietnam. I was more surprised that the management of Hoang Long taxi did not actively solve the case. Although confirming that their staff drove me, they did not hurry to find my luggage. Maybe because they were not the victim they did not understand the feelings of someone who was robbed in a foreign country, like me. I had almost lost my trust and hope about the possibility of finding my luggage until I went to the airport and was helped by Tran Van Thien, a member of the security and order management at Tan Son Nhat. He helped me get my luggage back, as well as my trust that there is justice in life and there are responsible people who sympathize with a victim like me. Many tourists, as well as me, are in need of those working with a heart like Thien. I would like to thank him and I will never forget the day the taxi driver promised to come and return my luggage. It was a stormy day and it was not Thien’s shift, but he waited with me from 3pm until the evening. And I will not forget the warm meal he invited me to when the weather got rough outside.
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